TRANSCRIPT - 157 - Following awe and wonder in our lives

Mel: [00:00:00] we all shared the view of the sky above. Again, it's that perspective sharing.

It's taking yourself out of thinking about everything's about me and it's all my own troubles. And I suppose kind of putting yourself in the grander scheme of things and going, well, I'm part of this grander ecosystem and I can shift my perspective to not be so self-centered and be more community orientated So I am joined here again today by my beautiful friend, Dr. Meg Hooper, who is the founder of Carousel Consulting and a psychologist. And we are gonna have a very interesting conversation today. So thank you, Meg. I.

Meg: [00:01:00] Thank you. It's good to be here again.

Mel: this is more of a meandering conversation today about a topic that I'm highly interested in and I bring a bit more of the kind of. Woo woo side of things to this conversation, whereas Meg brings a very much more of a scientific approach. So, but to kick us off, we started this conversation late last year, so late 2024, and it all started off the back of a podcast episode that I had listened to with Kate Northrop and Zach Bush, and I'll, I'll pop the link to that.

Particular podcast in the notes so that you can read, you can listen to that one as well. But the conversation centered around this particular podcast, and I found it absolutely fascinating, and I took several pages of notes from this particular episode, the premise of it was he was talking a lot around nature deprivation, and this is something that I'm particularly interested in, but what he was saying was scientifically that.

With nature deprivation, what we are actually doing is we are losing mitochondrial density more quickly. So mitochondria are the little energy cells that live like they're little cells that live [00:02:00] within our cells. And what he was saying was that with that it leads to the collapse of our microbiome as well.

And that's of course something else that I'm highly interested in having been through all my own personal gut issues and , adrenal fatigue. What he was saying is that that decline in the microbiome is also being contributed to because of the fact that we're not swimming in the oceans anymore, that we're not breathing in the air as much and we're not, you know, getting our hands dirty and playing in the dirt like we used to, like when we're growing our own vegetables and gardening and those sorts of things.

And he's saying that with this diminishing microbiome, it's reducing the amount of mitochondria that we have in our cells, which are effectively our life force and our energy. And one of the really interesting things that I found fascinating about what he said was that as mitochondria are our energy, and there's about 200 of those mitochondria per cell.

So that's a lot like 200 of these little guys in every single cell within our body. But what they were saying is [00:03:00] that they are producing light and they're producing energy. And so if we compare the amount of light and energy that they are producing to the amount that the sun produces. Each of these little mitochondria that live inside ourselves are producing 10,000 times more energy than a cubic centimeter of the sun, which.

Is incredible. It's, you know, it's a huge amount of energy that these little things, and there's 200 of them producing 10,000 times that type of energy in each of ourselves. But what's happening is that with these declines that he's linking to nature deprivation and other things that are going on, such as, , disease and the amount of chemicals that we are consuming, we're actually

losing our light, we're losing our light force that's within our body. And I thought that was just fascinating. And then you recommended Meg, the book Phosphorescence by the [00:04:00] lovely Julia Bed. And do you wanna just explain to me why you connected the dots on these two things Like, 'cause you heard me talking about this and there was some things in there that you potentially weren't completely on board with and said you would love this book.

Meg: , I guess when I think about light, it's both real. Like it's both actual and it's also metaphorical as well. And I think that's what this book does really well, is it ties the, the concept of light as a real, kind of thing, and light being a form of energy Along with light being this sort of metaphorical, way of understanding maybe mental health is the best way to, I don't think that's exactly the term that I mean, but a sense of wellness, a sense of being that is, , where we're flourishing, where we are, um, where we feel like we are.

 being our best [00:05:00] selves as a really clunky way to put it. But, when I hear you talk about these things that you discovered, which have, you know, there's so many sort of, , biological reasons and microbiological reasons why the mitochondria work the way they do, but also then respond to our environment and you. Absolutely influences the amount of, microorganisms We're, we're exposed to. I loved that you lit up, you personally lit up when you started talking about this and I was like, me with my, my old modernist science head going, well, that's just biology, isn't it? But then watching you light up and.

And knowing that there was, there was something more than just understanding biology there. It was about, you know, the parallels that you drew between knowing this new thing, but also, your own experiences with health, your own experiences with mental health. And I just knew that this book was like [00:06:00] right down the middle.

Like hit, hit the sweet spot.

Mel: Yeah, and I think it absolutely did. I devoured this book and I completely loved it. I have recommended it. I have referenced it in my work. It actually came at the perfect time. I was working with another client and I actually. Use the phosphorescence as a metaphor that underpins the entire concept for this particular project and what I drew from it.

So , the subtitle of the book is on All Wonder and things that sustain You when the world goes Dark, and this book is really about understanding. What it is that gives us joy, where we find or and wonder in the world and what it does for our own sense of wellbeing and mental health and how we can continue to draw on that when things aren't going so well, when the world's not so great for us, through illness or, relationship breakdowns or any myriad of other things.

And she explores a range of different. Scenarios through the book and tells a lot of very personal stories, which I found [00:07:00] really, lovely to kind of connect and understand the context in which she was speaking to. And just as an aside, it's beautifully written and some absolutely lovely turn of phrase in there.

 so it's just a joy to actually read this particular book as well, but. When I was researching to understand then, well, how can I actually particularly apply this, you know, if I'm talking about this very ethereal kind of concept with a client and trying to connect it from this metaphor, you know, I did my own research and I was looking up, you know, well, what does phosphorus actually mean?

And the, the dictionary terminology for it is that it's absorption of radiation such as light or electrons. That continue to emit beyond the source of the radiation. So basically, if we are absorbing light. Turn the light source off and it continues to glow effectively. And we're continuing to sort of remit that.

And, you know, if we think about that in terms of, , our natural environment, we're thinking about like glow worms and fireflies and ghost mushrooms, and. You know, phytoplankton things that have got this bioluminescence that are [00:08:00] emitting and radiating this light. And there's a turn, a phrase that she uses in the book and she's, she says, for me, these lights are the perfect metaphor for flashes of life.

In the middle of the dark or joy in difficult times, and I just thought that was a really beautiful way of explaining this concept is that the idea is that we are taking these things from nature that bring us joy and awe and wonder, and we're holding onto them so that when things aren't. As glowy that we have this opportunity to kind of radiate this light and source this from our own internal bank that we've got stored up.

And I just thought that was a really lovely way of kind of communicating and radiating our own light back out into the world when it's not so great and it's not, there's no light being shone in.

Meg: Yes, I. you know, it's al almost like a metaphor for resilience. That when things are out of our control, and we can't change our environment or we can't change , [00:09:00] the darkness as she describes the darkness around us, we draw on internal resources and that those internal resources are as she describes it, as a form of light.

Um, and I guess metaphorically they are. I mean, it's those internal resources that show us the way. It's almost like it's a skillset that we tap into that, um, we. You know, and we talk about when people are repeatedly exposed to smaller challenges, they get quite good at dealing with the big challenge when it comes, or they get better at the big challenge when it comes along.

And I wonder whether that's what it is, that as, as humans, we sort of, we encounter, um, we encounter things along the way that build our stores or build the skills and resources we've got to. Um, to have that internal light to sort of draw on those internal resources when we need them. Um, but the other thing is we only, and this is something that I got from this book as well, we only get those things when [00:10:00] we practice it.

So she talks about exposing yourself to these things. We only sort of get those resources and that light when we get a chance to sort of experience it repeatedly. And I thought that was really interesting as well.

'cause it's so consistent with the way that we think about, um, resilience and navigating change and challenge, uh, right now as well. It from a psychological point of view as well.

Mel: Yeah, absolutely. And I really resonated with it too because. you have to go out and build that reserve and have that store. And she quotes a number of different studies that were captured. Um, and, you know, researcher has been done and some of them have been, you know, really quite fascinating.

 One that I particularly, um. Found really interesting was that they did an 80 year study starting back in 1938, and they followed these people around and they found that the number one thing that contributed to someone's health and wellbeing and longevity was social contact and relationships.

Hands down, like that was the greatest predictor [00:11:00] of their health and happiness throughout the course of their life. So there's those things there. And then there's many other things that have contributed to that. And particularly for me, I'm quite interested in, , the way that she talks about that piece of light and how it is about, we had this inner light and.

This sort of tied back to the comments that, um, were in the podcast from Zach Bush is the fact that humans do actually glow. So in 2009 they did a study in Japan and they found that human beings do actually emit light. We glow, which I thought was beautiful, but the thing is we can't see it because it's a thousand times.

 less than the sensitivity of our own naked eye. So we can't visually see this. The fact that we, we glimmer and we glow, which I thought was just beautiful. You know, we are balls of energy and balls of light., but we've gotta nurture that in the light. And this is the other thing that she talks about is that the science of happiness and it's biological effect of actually there in terms of our bodies and to sustain that happiness, it is about remitting [00:12:00] those lessons that we absorb in the sunlight.

When things aren't going our particular way. And I think that just kind of ties everything that we've been talking about and to how to bring it all together. But I suppose, what are the ways that we can go and continue to fill that cup and build that reserve so that when things aren't in that glowy sort of state and we are in a bit more of a darker, you know, things aren't great at work or at home or you know, darker state, or you know, that slight.

I won't say depressed, but in a darker state, what can we do to start to build those reserves so that you think that we've got that there when we need it?

Meg: It's really easy to be resilient and it's really easy to navigate life effectively when things are going well. Like that's, it's, it's quite easy to do that well. When I say easy, I mean relatively. It's easy and it's easy to flourish when everything in your environment is going well, but that's also the time where we.

Um, where we need to be practicing. The things that sustain us and, and the things that sustain us are the things that, you know, many of them are The [00:13:00] things that, that she talks about is, as you said, building that reserve those resources. And we know from models of, um, resilience that social connection and social, um.

Both the quality and the breadth of it as well. So the more connections we have, the more likely it's that those connections are gonna sustain us. But, high quality connections as well. definitely tapping into a sense of purpose, so.

She doesn't call it purpose necessarily, although she touches on it so many times to say, you know, reflecting on what my, your life is about. And Julia Bed has had, um, breast cancer multiple times, and so. Using that as a, she's, she talks about using that as a way of reflecting on what's important to her.

That sounds kind of like I've simplified it in and I totally have simplified it, but, but it's, it's, um, , when  drawing on the,  the things that she's built up over time, like. Um, that sense of purpose that she established over her life. She's also has a really strong faith, and [00:14:00] I don't have a faith, and so, but what I loved about the book is that it didn't matter, and it's not that you, it's more that she doesn't draw on the supernatural to be her.

And so that faith gives her a sense of purpose and meaning and a way of understanding the world. And if you don't have a faith, like someone like me has to find that in other ways. But she gives you access to that in this book as well. The other thing she gives you access to is. And as a psychologist we would call this sort of reframing or, um, finding ways to look at things in perspective.

 I can't remember if she talks about it in the book or not, but when astronauts go into space and they see the earth Yes. And they talk and they look at earth in perspective and all of a sudden their mindset shifts like on a dime.

And I think, um, that's a really classic, you know, cognitive psychology reframing technique to. Your own troubles and your own, um, challenges in perspective of the world. So there's loads of things that we can personally do to build those [00:15:00] resources. Um, a lot of them come from psychology, but I also think just humility.

Like that is the single biggest message I come I get from Julia's book, is that humility comes in all forms and we have to be really open to it. A question for you though, you think this book would've made an impact at a different time in your life?

Mel: Hmm, good question. Perhaps not the same impact, but definitely. Would've contributed to my perspective on things. Absolutely. Because there's so much content in here that really speaks to the philosophy that we embody with community around fostering that sense of connection where people feel like they belong and building that sense of community.

And the thing that when you were talking then was what [00:16:00] comes to mind is that. Of ego, you know, in terms of that humility, because the piece that she speaks to in here is really about. When we shrink ourselves in importance, our desire to care for and look out for and feel connected to those around us significantly increases.

So that example you gave about the astronauts looking at Earth is you start to realize how insignificant you are in. This galaxy when you start to think about how grand things are around you, like just the sheer scale of things and the sort of, I suppose, the Infiniti ness of the galaxy that goes around you.

And one of the other studies that she referenced in there was. Just spending time looking up at really tall eucalyptus trees actually increased your chances of looking out for and helping someone else because again, [00:17:00] you are shrinking yourself in scale to the world around you. And there was. A great, um, campaign that happened sort of early 2020 and it was called Look Up and it was by Dr.

Fiona Kerr. She's a neuroscientist out of, um, Adelaide, and she was on this campaign of looking up and just basically feeling that connection to so many more things and things that were so much more beyond us is that we all shared the view of the sky above. And I think it's. Again, it's that perspective sharing.

It's taking yourself out of thinking about everything's about me and it's all my own troubles. And I suppose kind of putting yourself in the grander scheme of things and going, well, I'm part of this grander ecosystem and part of this bigger network, and I can shift my perspective to not be so self-centered and be more community orientated in that way.

So I think there's a lot of context in this book that I have drawn on. That resonated and reflected a lot of my own [00:18:00] views, I think too, in terms of community. Um, but there was some really great examples I think of other elements have helped me kind of connect the dots that, um, potentially I hadn't previously connected. yeah.

Meg: It's almost like you need to be prepared to be humble, so you need humility to. Make it work for you. And when I say make it work for you, I mean, you know, to, to at lay to access all these, you know, these social connections and social resources and um, these perspective setting sort of experiences and things like, or probably are only as effective as you are humble enough to let them be.

And I wonder, and I reflect on my career as well, and I think, uh, it probably wasn't until. I, because I think there's a fine line from the outside. There's a fine line between operating from a self-centered fear base and operating, which could look like humility, but actually [00:19:00] comes from a very different place.

So from the outside it looks like humility in that, you know, you're, um, not. You're not grandiose in any way, or you don't, you're not self-serving in any way, or you are, um, you're, you are self-deprecating to some extent. And I think that's not necessarily humility because for me, very early on in my career, a lot of that was sort of fear driven and wanting to make sure that everyone was okay and wanting to make sure that.

I was seen in a positive light and that I was, you know, there was a, there was a lot of insecurity that came with that behavior. Now people probably don't see it as any different, but it comes from a very different source. And so I would say the last 15 years or so, um, have of my career have been settling into a more humble way of.

At other human beings, at my own achievements, at my own state of mind. And you know, [00:20:00] it ebbs and flows. There's no, it's not linear as we know. You know, I love a good squiggly line to explain things, but, um, but yeah, I. I don't actually know that when I was younger that a book like this, other than it's beautifully written and I've always been a big reader and always loved beautiful writing like this.

Um, but other than that, I don't know it would've had the same impact because I think humility has to be the driver. I'm just a part of this system and the system's gonna continue on without me. Um, and you know, and philosophically it, and maybe, maybe because philosophically it's would've hit all of my sort of existentialist kind buttons in that, you know.

We're here for a good time, a long time, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, I, I just, yeah, I'm curious and we'll never know because it was written in 2020, so it was published in 2020 at least. So I just, I, I reflect on how I've changed and how that changed. Probably the book came at the right time for me to actually experience it the way that I did.

Mel: That's a really interesting reflection because I would have to agree that [00:21:00] that sense of ego that drove, you know, career early on and I. 2020 was I think a huge shifting point for so many of us and completely enabled us to reevaluate so much in our lives. And you know, I think forever we'll be kind of talking about the pandemic, , because it was such a catalyst, like it totally transformed things.

And I know for myself, like I completely reevaluated why the hell I was working so hard and why I was doing the things I was doing. And, you know, still ended up with adrenal fatigue 'cause I'd quite learn my lesson, but. It was all part of this journey of unbecoming what I had become, to become who I really wanted to be.

And yeah, I think it was really, you know, I read the Power of Now by Eckhart Toll back in 2018, and I had no idea what that guy was talking about. Like do you mean? And I'm like, I get it now. I get it now. You know this. I think when you're younger you have this sense of that you can control things a lot more, that you have a lot more power over things than you really do. things will happen the way things will happen, and you just need to get on board with it. I think even probably in the last six [00:22:00] months, my concept of my sense of control over things has shifted. Hugely, again, like the way that my internal state feels does not actually influence my external state whatsoever.

So like I can be running myself ragged, having as much internal deprecating self-talk as I like about situations that are happening outside of me, but it makes no physical difference to the external reality. Like it doesn't change anything. It doesn't progress it, it doesn't make it better. And I suppose that's one of the things I'm realizing now is I can actually pull myself out of those spiraling states far more quickly now because I have this sense of ability to self-reflect and go, this is actually not serving anybody.

It's not changing anything. So let's choose a different way of thinking about this or choose a different way of approaching it. And I think that's a really core essence of what this book is about. And um, I wouldn't have got that [00:23:00] six months ago.

Meg: I'm exactly the same, just letting, it's not letting go. I don't describe it as letting go, but it's just being sort of at. With the fact that, you know, people are gonna do what they do, have very little control over other people. Actually, a, a reflection I have had more recently is, um, and it's sort of a combination of a bunch of things that would take too long to explain, but that really.

I take a huge amount of personal responsibility for everything in my life. Like I, I am responsibility, kind of Champion 1 0 1, little type A here is doing all of the things. , um. She's taking responsibility for her health. She's taking responsibility for finances. She's taking responsibility for her team.

She's taking responsibility for her business. She's been sensible. She's been doing all the right things and taking responsibility. And actually my interest in personal responsibility as a professional has diminished considerably. Like I'm actually much more, I think. I [00:24:00] have really high expectations of other people from adulting point of view, but when they don't, I no longer go, Hmm.

I I no longer sort of get angsty about that. I just go, let's look at the environment. Let's look at what is, what is actually really driving this. And I think that's the other, the other element of. What I appreciate about, um, the book is it's, there is a strong flavor of finding your own light and being responsible for looking for it.

Um, but that it actually, she, she sort of, the fact that she says. Um, and, and I can't remember any direct quotes 'cause my memory's not as good as yours. But, but, but it really is like the light has to come from within us. We do have to take personal responsibility, but we actually, build reserves from the outside world.

We, we actually can't do it in a vacuum. We actually need the outside world to. Of its magnificent, so that we can, we can restore that. Um, and we can take all the personal responsibility we like in the world, but without those other things. That's never gonna, we're never gonna experience it with it to its [00:25:00] fullest extent. Uh, in my, and I, and, and I was.  [00:26:00] [00:27:00] I was thinking about what you were talking about before when you said, you know, that looking up 

Mel: Mm. 

Meg: you think it, and I wonder if this is the same for you in your work as well, is that organizations have to be structured in a way and not, I don't mean organizationally structured as in the org chart.

I [00:28:00] mean, they have to create environments where looking up is just the way that we do things because it's not just us. Not looking up and looking at the sky as individuals. It's actually this collective kind of where do we look? Do we continue to look down and wrap our arms around the thing that we are responsible for?

Or do we look up and we look out? And I wonder, and it would be really interesting to hear, you know, from your. Perspective whether that's you see that as well is like organizations who embrace your work or embrace my work. The ones that are more likely to tend to have a willingness or an or a, or a desire to create that up and out

kind of feeling.

Mel: Yeah, actually that's a really good way of thinking about it because I would have to agree is that the organizations that I have seen achieve greater success through the process and the way that they've embraced it [00:29:00] have been from those that I would call much more visionary leaders. And I think the qualities of those visionary leaders are that they are not buried in the detail and not focused on one particular thing, but they're looking out across the entire ecosystem and the way that it all comes together, the way it all impacts, and the connectivity between different activities and how they all progress them as a business forward collectively.

And I'd also say that. Those that are doing this really well are those organizations that are really, really focused on their people, because you can have organizations that are very focused on productivity and performance and the bottom line and client delivery. But at the heart of that, if their people aren't well, if their people aren't happy, if their people aren't connecting [00:30:00] well, building great relationships and having those solid foundations, you're never gonna deliver on those things.

And I find it really easy to identify now, which organizations are more focused on their people and therefore then. Getting the outcomes and the results and those that are more focused on the bottom line and, you know, direct performance. So I, I would absolutely agree that those that are looking up and out and at everyone in a collective unity, then they're getting a better outcome from the work that we do.

Absolutely.

Meg: I wonder and to draw a parallel to the book as well. There is that sense throughout the book that it's a shared experience. Yes. It's a very personal it. Um, and, and it's actually a collection of essays, so it's not like there's a plot, you know, just in case someone hasn't read it and they're [00:31:00] expecting some kind of, 

Mel: it's not, not a novel. It's not a biography. It's, it is, it is a collection of stories, but there's this common thread that, that goes through it.

Meg: And it's, and it's that, um, the shared, the shared experience. And I love, in the last chapter she talks about her, um, her swim club.  Like seeing, she's on her way to, um, gamma and she sees the, uh, she sees a friend from a swim, her swim club, and um, talks about really desperate to see phosphorescence or casually mentions that this phosphorescence and it's like right down the end of her street.

And this sense of shared experience of that and how much effort her friends put into her experiencing that. 

Swimming in phosphorescence was just really beautiful. It was, it was like everyone kind of put all, all in for her, for her to go swimming in phosphorescence yeah.

And I like, I get a lot from, from shared experiences with other people as well.

Mel: Yeah, absolutely. And it, yeah, it was beautiful. Like she'd been in search of this this whole time through this whole story and then it's right there on her doorstep at the

end, [00:32:00] which is

really beautiful. It's like, here's your reward. Um, tying this back to that, that idea of na nature deprivation, because I think for me.

This is something that has become more front of mind because as a society, as humans, um, 55% of us live in cities and I have no doubt that those that actually live listening to this podcast. Uh, living in a city. So that ratio would be extremely much higher. And the UN is estimating that by the year 2052 thirds of us are going to be living in cities.

And that is actually gonna be much, much higher in the developed world, which we are part of. So this disconnection that we have with nature and the contribution that it actually then has to us. Building these reserves because of that sense of awe and that sense of wonder and that sense of feeling like we are just this smaller part of something much, much greater, much, much bigger.

I mean, if you think about swimming in the ocean, the expansiveness [00:33:00] of that, it kind of, it does, you know, dwarf you in in contrast to the size of it. And I think having that ability to be continuously reminded. Of how fragile we are as humans and the, you know, how big everything is around us makes a big difference.

And some of the things that she quoted in the book, which I really resonated with was that how much our health and wellbeing improves with the site of greenery. The studies that have been done around even just kids growing up in neighborhoods where there's a lot of green scaping and the significant reduction in mental health and anxiety that they have in their adolescence years.

So we know that biophilia has a big impact on our health, but I don't think that we really embrace that, particularly in our buildings. And there were studies that were done as well around just having. Gardens and plants in our building. So the way that we build our infrastructure, like if we are gonna build buildings and we are gonna live in these urban areas, having [00:34:00] access to greenscape.

So plants and, you know, gardens in and around us, improves our mental health and studies. We're even trying to improve our concentration. So it is great, you know, from a performance thing if we're looking at it from a business perspective as well. So we know that. This connection to nature, like it's, it's in built us.

Like we, we, we came from the bush and you know, we lived in one with nature and it's only been over through our evolution that we've started to live in these concrete cities. And just, I think finding ways to reconnect with that is going to be, I, I, I'm just seeing this as a, a big push that's gonna happen in the next, you know, 10, 15 years is my guess.

Just because of the psychological impacts it's having on our mental health, our anxiety, and therefore our general wellbeing, which is impacting our productivity and performance. What's your take on that?

Meg: What it reminds me of the most is research that's done on.

The differences between exercising indoors and outdoors. So, um, I [00:35:00] can, um, walk or run on a treadmill and I can, you know, get fit to some extent because I'm moving my body, but I don't, I don't, my eyes don't have to constantly adjust to the horizon. My eyes don't in front. Um, bringing, bringing it back into our body, the experience that sort of, the, the, um, the visual experience of nature.

But what are the, what's our body's reaction to that? And I think the, you know, the, the work that they've done looking at why walking on, um. Uneven terrain is actually really good for us because our eyes are forced to adjust and um, and you don't get uneven terrain in buildings or on treadmills. You get uneven terrain by walking in a garden path or walking, even walking across a lawn, even though those are manufactured and very human made.

But, um. On forest walking.  that, that idea, that uneven terrain, not only is our body gotta adjust and, and figure out ways to keep stable while we're doing that, um, it also visually our eyes have to keep [00:36:00] adjusting and making, making connections with the ground. And we need to keep looking ahead and predicting what the, what the earth is gonna do next so that we can, we can sort of shift and position our body differently as well.

So I. To come back to the idea that you talked about before about seeing ourselves as a part of a system once you start to close the walls in, because it's easier and it's more convenient. And as human beings, we, we build cities because we kind of need a way to live densely because it just said we don't have any options.

It's too many of us don't have options anymore. Um, not all of us anyway.

You know, this, the sort of health benefits that come from fresh air and all those sorts of things. It's the, it's also like experiencing challenge by walking along a rough path as opposed to a treadmill or, or walking in a building. It's all [00:37:00] nice and smooth and foot pads and nice and smooth and those sorts of things as well.

That's, 

Mel: I think it's a fair assessment, like just that adaptability that comes from being in an unpredictable. Situation. And I think that in a way is probably the antithesis on what we've created in many ways, is we've created a very routine, very predictable environment that we can live in, which removes that need for a lot of that adaptability, which again, builds quite a bit of that resilience.

But yeah, I think for me it's really about that connection to things that are not. Made it concrete, you know, or manmade. And given the industry that I'm in, like that's the core of my industry. We build buildings and we create an internal environments for people to , cohabitate, and work from. But I think there are ways that we can offset that and [00:38:00] introduce these types of environments as well.

Because the other thing that really resonated with me was that. Whilst we've found all these fantastic effects that come from being in and around and looking at green spaces, the presence of water actually generated much ma greater effects for people as well. So, you know, that's just another thing. So does that mean we need to just visit the beach more, or, you know, have, do we need to have, um, you know, lakes and things within these green spaces as well?

So it's, I think there's just, it's a complex conversation, but. I think for me it's just about creating opportunity where we can be reunited with nature because it actually helps to build that reserve and that internal, um, resilience tank so that we've got that ability to draw in it when we do want.

Need that joy and that light and those things to come forward for us. And I know the last thing I wanna kind of touch on before we wrap up today is you've been on your own little adventure of awe seeking, um, and it's become a bit of a joke between us as well. But I'd love to know how your sense of finding joy and noticing awe and, you know, [00:39:00] seeking that out in your life has changed, um, probably even more so recently, but, you know, over the 

course of your life. 

Meg: Um, I think for me, uh, it's been less, I mean, I've always been an outdoors, um, kind of. And I do spend a lot of time outdoors. I do, you know, visit parks. I do spend a lot of time walking. I do spend some time running. I, um, for me, the experience of awe and. Perspective shifting, probably more perspective shifting has been a lot more about that.

Probably about that sense of control that we were talking about earlier. Um, but also being really present. Like I, one of the things that. Particularly in, in the book that, um, resonates is, and it, it comes back to our conversation. Were we ready for this book when we were younger with age? And I am an old lady now, so, but, but with age, older lady, I should say.

And I embrace that. I love being an old lady. Um, I, I think my, my kind of, my presence, my. My readiness to notice and my ability to be in the moment that I'm in and [00:40:00] acknowledging and recognizing what it's doing to my body and those sorts of things. I think that's probably been my own personal response to books like this, but also ideas really similar to this that we kind of, as much as I. Um, being much more interested in designing spaces that facilitate this, which is what, you know, it's just your gig. And I, I love the connection between this and design. I think personally, it's definitely been about taking, um, taking responsibility for the moments that I, that I get. And, and we're taking responsibility for making the most of the moments that I get.

And, um, there's a, there's a quote, I can't remember where I heard it, but it really, really resonated with me. And I use it, you know, I use it nearly every day in my journal or when I'm writing something or when I'm thinking through something and feeling frustrated. And it's, these are the good days. No matter what, these are the good days.

And so you kind of have to make the most of them. And even if shit's going down, what if these are the good days? Then you [00:41:00] kind of gotta make the most of it. And I think that's probably where my, my experience of awe and connection and connection to my body and connection to the outside world has really started to play out in probably the way that I talk to myself is more than anything.

Mel: And I would have to say the same in many ways. But I think too, this concept of joy and awe, I would think is probably newer to me. And I don't think I ever actively sought it before.

Whereas now I'm far more conscious of looking for it. Um, and similar to what you said, you know, if these are the good days. What are those moments? And really being, I suppose, kind of, I don't know, like, um, impressed by some of the things that happen in nature and in the world and you know, just it's those little moments, you know, these aren't big, grandiose things.

And, you know, we spoke about this at the planning day, um, back in January. Is that. It's, those joy moments are actually probably [00:42:00] very, very small and very fleeting, but they can have such a, a profound impact on how we feel about ourselves and our day. And, you know, that little memory reserve that we have, and I, I find that I think is probably something that I've become far more aware of and that contributes a lot more joy and pleasure to my every day.

so I love this conversation. I love this topic, as you can tell, and I absolutely loved this book, and I would highly recommend it to anybody who is interested after our conversation. Absolutely. Go read it.

Meg: Say meandering didn't.

Mel: I did say meandering. This was a very meandering conversation, but I think for me, like the sum of it all is that.

Phosphorescence is about finding your own inner light and building it, creating your own inner light, and then using it to emanate and radiate it when you need it. 

Meg: no, It's, um, yeah, it's those resources that we have [00:43:00] when things aren't going our way.

Mel: absolutely. for joining me again, Love our conversations and if anyone would like to continue this conversation or get in touch with Dr. Meg about supporting your organization and finding ways to build their own resilience and more connected and collaborative teams. Meg is your lady.

Um, and I'll drop all her contact details in the show notes so that you can reach out to her and see how she can spark some joy and build some phosphorescence in your organization.

Meg: Of joy. That's what we're in. 

Mel: it. Thanks 

Meg: Thanks. Now.